Which line for a mainsheet

[Brion Toss]

Hi again,
Not clear at all on what you mean. Is there a way you could post a drawing? In any case, there should be no ends at all; the purchase's rope is formed into a grommet, with a constant-diameter splice. Looking forward to seeing a drawing or picture.
Fair leads,
Brion Toss

[allene]

Originally Posted by Brion Toss

Hi again,
Not clear at all on what you mean. Is there a way you could post a drawing? In any case, there should be no ends at all; the purchase's rope is formed into a grommet, with a constant-diameter splice. Looking forward to seeing a drawing or picture.
Fair leads,
Brion Toss

Thanks so much for replying to my posting. This is really driving me crazy.

Well no ends, that is an interesting addition. That solves one problem I was wondering about.

The question I have remains that, spliced together or not, there are two parts of the line that come off the boom that need to be secured to hold the boom in. Right now I have a horn cleat and a turning block-camcleat. With my 5:1 I use one or the other of these and with the 3:1/6:1 it is possible for me to use both but that would make some things difficult it would seem. Here is what I have now.
http://l-36.com/newstuff5.JPG (please excuse the mess, this was just before I painted the cockpit and added new scuppers)
http://l-36.com/traveler/Traveler1.jpg
http://l-36.com/traveler/Traveler2.jpg

And here is the sketch you requested:
http://l-36.com/3161.gif


Remember, the goal is to be able to pull the two lines hand over hand with the lines coming off the boom similar to the motion of hosting a sail. I also need to be able to play the sheet from a rail position. We like to have it wrapped half way around a cleat when we do that. That little bit of friction is just right for controlling the line.

The standard solution I think involves a Harken 402 but for a number of reasons I don't like that. A possible solution is for me to make a similar piece of hardware modified for my boat layout but that would mean giving up on my goal of having the lines come off the boom.

Allen

[allene]

Here are some more pictures that I took today to add to my previous reply.

First, the day sailing cleating arrangement:
http://l-36.com/ms1.jpg -- this is what I use most of the time.

The racing cleat:
http://l-36.com/ms2.jpg -- actually, we almost never cleat if off but just put a 1/4 turn around the bottom of the cleat and play it from the rail.

The 3:1/6:1 boom side blocks (not sure about the connection that I have mocked up with the white spectra webbing):
http://l-36.com/ms4.jpg

The 3:1/6:1 cleated off using existing cleats:
http://l-36.com/ms3.jpg

Hope this makes it clear what I am trying to do. I am very uncomfortable using the existing cleating arrangement but can't think of something better.

Allen

[allene]

If I can't figure out how to use two horn cleats, my backup would be to use a fiddle block and camcleats like this:
http://l-36.com/3161fiddle.gif

If I use a double block like in Harken 401 or 402, then the lines would cross as the block swivels as the boom block is a fiddle block.

This would keep everything in line although it would require that I fabricate the base for the camcleats. One of the posters suggested always using fiddle blocks and not doubles or tripples. As I already have enough fiddle blocks to do this, that is an added advantage. I do think, however, that two doubles and a single mounted below the boom double runs true with the single mounted crosswise.

I have not figured out how to eliminate the turning blocks and use just horn cleats in a way that seems like it would be workable in race or emergency conditions. This is still my goal.

Allen

[allene]

I tried out the system today and it really didn't work that well. When doing a gybe with the 3:1 configuration, all the lines got tangled up and it was basically a mess. The 6:1 was nice though. I am thinking of abandoning this setup and trying something different. Basically, taking one line to the gooseneck and then back through a block to a cleat on the cabin top or to a free winch. I have two free winches on the cabin top. One end aft and one forward. It would take two crew to do a fast gybe but at least all the lines would not get tangled. Also, this would allow the mainsheet trimmer to sit on the rail and trim from there at the aft of the cabin top. There would still be the option to trim from the stern using the swivel block cam cleat when crushing, or from a winch on the cabin top for that matter. I need to work out the blocks so it is fair.

Allen

[Brion Toss]

Hi again,
Sorry to have been so long in getting back to this; we have had a lot of fascinating work going on here.
First, I can see why your version of 3:1/6:1 would produce a tangle. I'd be amazed if it didn't. But let's not condemn the idea because of, um, alternate takes. Stacking a Harken 2138 on top of a 2139, and anchoring the latter to your cockpit sole fitting, would give you leads coming out one above the other, with both or either available for hauling or slacking, tangle-free. You might experiment with cam angle, and orientation, for best ergonomics for your situation.
The boom block for this setup would be a double with a crossblock on it (the upper part of Harken 400), and the lower block would be a double.
Alternatively you could have a double block on the sole, with side-by-side cams on a swivel arm (Harken 402). In your case, I think this would only work if the arm could be bent wa-a-y up, to get a usable angle on the cams; check with Harken on the feasibility of this.
Two-speed purchases only work if it is easy to handle either or both lines. That precludes having them exit anywhere but right next to each other.
There are other ways to do this, of course. On a fairly large cutter we are working on now, for instance, we have one lead going to a self-tailing winch, and another going to a rope clutch. The clutch is positioned just outboard of the (port-mounted) winch, so it is easy to grab both it and the line coming off the winch. Most often in a boat this size, though, the crew will take up on the clutch line for low loads, and use the winch for taking up high loads as well as for slacking for either low or high loads. And so on.
Fair leads,
Brion Toss

[allene]

Brion,

Thanks for getting back to me. Good for you that you are busy. I understand what you are saying about my implementation of the 3:1/6:1. Perhaps I gave up on it too quickly but I did and have tried several different systems and rejected most of them for one reason or another. Most were versions of what is called the German or Admiral's Cup system. I tried aft winches and cabin top winches. Problems with both. The next thing, and one I think I am going to really like, is a double ended system but with the leads way apart. It will be basically 5:1 with one lead going to my sole mounted swivel block cam cleat or the horn cleat and the other along the boom to a cabin top mounted winch. This will allow 2.5:1 although it will take two people to do it. But that is OK as I have a big enough crew when racing. It will also allow for considerably more leverage with the winch but still have the advantage of the 5:1 on the line aft for our general line control.

The issue I have is trying to figure out the blocks to make it work. Tomorrow I am going to try a single with a fiddle hung from it with the intersection pulled forward so the lines clear each other. Fiddle on the traveler. That was the best I could come up with without having multiple attachment points on the boom. I have never seen such a system on a boat so I may be in new ground.

PS. In terms of my "alternate take", I really never could figure out a good way to have the 3:1/6:1 come off the boom and what I did was the best I could come up with. I certainly understand your assessment of it and what it takes to make such a system work. I still can't see a way to have it come off the boom though. In terms of the use of fiddle blocks instead of duals that didn't seem to contribute to the problem. The tangle was in the piles of line on the cockpit sole. I am off to the boat to try the latest system.

[allene]

What would be the best way to rig a 5:1 dual ended mainsheet system with one end aft forward of the traveler and the other end going along the boom to the cabin top? I can tell you many ways that don't work and one that does work but looks like something Rube Goldberg invented.

Allen

Added 7/28 -- I tried several more systems that didn't work. What does work is a single with a fiddle block hung from it on the boom and a fiddle on the traveler. The line along the boom goes to the single and the line to the aft cleat comes from the top of the boom mounted fiddle block. To make it work I pulled the junction forward with a line that has to split around the line going forward. Several ways to do that so they don't rub. Looks a little complicated so I am still wondering if there isn't a better way. I tried a triple on the boom and everything got crossed up as the lead to the aft cleat is at a different angle than the line along the boom so everything rubbed. --

Added 7/29 -- NOTE: This doesn't work. The single block capsizes.

AE